Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:06pm Hi all- and I think you're great!! My 16 year old son has lost 3 years of his life now to Zoloft, Zyprexa, Celexa, Risperdal, Buspar, Effexor, Seroquil, Depakote and finally Paxil...and now has been totally off them all for 2 months. I have a couple questions if anyone can help or give advice. 1. He's having outbursts at school that the officials call "agressive acts", but they are really panic attacks, and he's currently taking Valerian root to help this. Is this what's happening (panic attacks?). He recently threw a desk across the room sliding it on the floor, because another student threw a pencil at him, but says he just acted without a thought about what he was doing. Other acts seem to be just nervous energy, pacing the floor not wanting to sit down, etc...Is there anything else of a natural form that I can try to help him through this and keep him in school? And... 2. The school and one certain probation officer are pressuring us (his parents) to go back onto his "meds", which of course we are fighting tooth and nail, and I wonder if they can actually make us give him these drugs by a court order. This is only because of the "agressive" behavior at school. He is doing so well in every other way...He's alive again, he's not suicidal and never was until he started taking these drugs, he's not cutting up his legs and arms, and never did until this, he comes out of his room and talks to me and I'm so thankful to have my son back!! And I'm so glad we didn't lose him, but we came very close one dark night... And, I'm glad you all are there and that you believe what I say, because I don't think anyone else here quite does (believe me), they just say...okay...if you say so...And finally, but not as important as having my son, Joe, I'm so ANGRY at the drug companies and the so-called doctors and I wonder how I will ever get over that because it's not healthy for me. Thanks for listening. Polly Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:23pm Response1: Dear Polly: Welcome to the group. I am so sorry that your son has been victimized by the mental health community. Nobody should ever have to take as many drugs as he did. As for his angry outbursts, this could well be a side effect of the medications. You said he was off all drugs for two months -- well, sometimes, it take 6 - 8 months for these drugs to clear your system and it's possible to have side effects for months or even years afterwards. he could still be in withdrawal from Paxil. Nobody ever got better taking these drugs, but you will never convince the establishment of that. And your worst nightmare could come true because yes, they CAN force your son to take meds if they believe that he is a threat to either himself or other people. You must help him get his emotions under control -- perhaps a good cognitive therapist -- but there is also a chance that these drugs have damaged the frontal lobes of his brain which controls impulse. The drug companies deny that this is a problem, but why then are so many people committing violent acts over which they have no control? If you could show the school that your son was in some kind of behavioral therapy, they might be less willing to take you to court to have him drugged. How did he wind up on all these meds in the first place? Trisha Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:48pm Response2: Hi Polly and welcome. I would believe that what your son is experiencing is not panic attacks but rather the aggression and rage associated with the withdrawal of these meds. Charly or someone else would have to supply you with the clinical term for this. I do believe from what you've written, that he does suffer from anxiety, which is to be expected after coming off this junk. I was on anti-depressants for 9 years and here I am at 22 weeks drug free. I have a lot of anxiety. Even as I sit here at work and type this sometimes I just want to jump out of my skin. I've been doing really well lately, and in the past few days have had a sort of setback with anxiety and panic attacks. But it will pass, I just have to grit my teeth and get through it. He will get better, but with the brain being damaged as all of ours have, it will take quite awhile for it to heal. The brain is amazing, though, because it can heal itself. Your son will heal with time, love and compassion. These meds are just horrible. I sometimes wonder if I'll ever be 100% again, but I have to believe that I will be in order to continue to heal. As far as natural supplements to help him, I'm stumped here too. My chiropractor has had me on a supplement combo including Relaxall which contains the Valerian root. Lately though, the combo hasn't been working very well. I go to see him on Friday, and I'm going to ask him about maybe taking something else. I'll let everyone here know what he has to say. And NO! I hope to God no one can be forced to take these meds! Trisha, here's a topic for you, and let me say, I'm glad you're on our side. Take care, Robin Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:59pm Response3: This is very frustrating Polly. No one will believe you that it is the medication causing the problems and the withdrawal. Every single one of us in this group has experienced the frustration and anger with people in the health care field who tell us it is "all in our head". Yeah, it IS all in our head because we have brain damage! When will someone wake up and realize that these drugs have ruined lives? People DO get sick on them! People commit suicide and murder on them! There is such a physical thing to go through such as a very real and horrible withdrawal! I always said I'd never wish this withdrawal on my worst enemy, but I swear to God, I'd love to get those drug company CEO's all on a deserted island after taking their "wonderdrugs" and let them go through the pain and anguish of withdrawal. Sorry guys, just feeling a little yuck today. I'll just step down from my soap box... Robin Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:06am Response4: Polly, your story really touched me because I've been in a similar situation with my son. He's 20 now, but when he was 16 he was diagnosed with anxiety and put on Prozac. I know all about the nightmare of suicidal ideas, self-mutilation, and changed personality. I too, felt so grateful to have him back once he was off of the drug. I just want to encourage you to do all in your power to KEEP him off the "medications". Right now he's experiencing serious withdrawal reactions that will get better with time. My son was only on Prozac and he wound up in the emergency room several times because of severe withdrawal and panic attacks. Unfortunately, the doctors seemed to be unaware of this very real problem: these drugs are addictive and they do cause withdrawal. Unfortunately, 1 1/2 years after stopping the Prozac, Jeff is still having panic attacks, but he's improved a great deal. I think that the damage psych drugs do can take years of good nutrition and care to correct, but I have faith that the human brain has amazing abilities to repair and regenerate itself. Don't lose hope! And yes, as someone mentioned, find a therapist who does cognitive-behavioral therapy, Good luck and God Bless! Patti Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:29pm Response5: Have you tried behavioural modification for your son? I know that some people on this board have not had good results with therapists (and I'm talking about therapists who CAN NOT prescribe medications), but we have had great results with our family counselor for my soon- to-be 18 year old stepson, who has a diagnosis of ADD, but is not on meds. If you haven't tried it, maybe a good counselor can help him. Here's just a sample of what was going on with my stepson, which sounds like some of the behaviour you describe about your son... Just before school started last Fall, he went nuts about the new school dress code and jumped on my husband and started hitting and biting him. My husband tried to restrain him and they were rolling around on the floor. I ended up calling the police, who came and got my stepson to stop and they chatted for a long time but decided not to take him to jail. (If there ever is another violent incident like this, I will insist that he spend a little time in a jail cell to see where he may be heading.) My husband ended up with bruises all up and down his arms, and terrible bite marks from my stepson's braces, but did not require medical attention since nothing broke the skin. I called around the first thing the next day to find a family counselor, and we started seeing him once a week. The whole family went for a couple of sessions so the counselor could see us all together, then my stepson started going weekly. A few weeks into the school year, he had an incident at school where he threw a horseshoe a girl in PE because she wasn't participating in the game, and the substitute teacher wasn't paying any attention to the kids' arguments. Luckily, his aim is terrible and he didn't come close to hitting her or anyone else. He did end up having to visit the campus police for a warning. In any case, he's had a problem with reacting (usually not as violently as the above examples) without thinking about what's angering him and what the consequences might be (jail, restrictions to his favorite activities, etc.) The counselor has made great progress in helping my stepson modify his own behaviour, and now we're down to once or twice a month sessions for him. (I've started seeing the therapist for myself to help get off Paxil and learn relaxation and stress reduction techniques, but that is a different story.) I don't doubt that the medications have either caused or amplified your son's "aggressive acts", but the end result seems to be uncontrollable anger that he needs to learn how to control, because in either case, this type of behaviour will probably be with him for a while. (I don't remember if you told us a diagnosis?) It sounds a great deal like my stepson's ADD. By the way, if your son has a diagnosis of ADD, the schools are required to allow him some modifications, like temporarily leaving the classroom if he feels like he's going out of control, etc., which can be very helpful. Others may be able to help you with supplements and herbal stuff, but I don't use any of them other than regular multivitamins. However, I highly recommend finding a good therapist (who CAN NOT prescribe drugs) to help him learn to modify his own behaviour. Note that it will take time to see results, but your son will not have to ingest anything to do it! Good Luck. Renee Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 9:22pm Hi all- I'm just behind in all my chores, including computer...have two grandbabies now to watch over, which I'm mentioning because it was one the things that persuaded me to take action with Joe's Meds. Behavior was so incredibly unpredictable I felt the babies would not be safe (not to mention the rest of us.) if Joe went into another world and did God knows what. He's had a loaded gun hidden once (no, we don't have any guns here, he got it from a brother-in-law's garage next door.), and went driving twice with no recall of doing so.) Anyway, we do have in-home counselling going on through the probation department and she promises to be on our side if the meds thing comes up again, and at least respects our request even if she doesn't agree. (of course she's probably not allowed to give her opinion, but I've shown her many pages of reasons why I don't want him on these meds.) The counselling is working out okay, but so slowly, and I know it will take time...Now having problems with his younger brother, 12, and trying to get it all straightened out. He was put on meds and counselling by order of the schools because of ...I don't really know now...mostly behavior problems and saying the word Bazooka in school, and was diagnosed as ADHD and given speed. I went back and back to the Drs with him and said I don't think so...and he was on five different meds before I said no more and without permission weaned him off all. He is doing well except for anger outbursts, and gets a lot of exersize (Karate training too) compared to his older brother Joe. Joe is doing good on that sleepytime tea I saw someone mention, I've been using that every once in a while for a few years, just when things get rough, and it calms me... Paxil was his last and final drug, and he was only on it about a month in 20mg then 40mg doses. Just before his last hospital stay, 5 times total, he was on 5 different drugs per day, and I said to the Dr. could this be a problem, but he said he never heard of that happening, and Joe was having bad thoughts, hallucinations, etc...about killing and torturing his cat that he loves dearly, and other people , and he told me he was scared, and I asked the doctor could this be a bad reaction, and he said (you can guess), I never heard of that happening. So, now I know it was indeed a very long very bad trip.. Joe was started on these meds because he cut his arm one night because his girlfriend was cutting herself only he didn't get to tell anybody it was just to impress a girl, and he was automatically out of my hands when I took him for stitches, and we were told they can sign him in the hosp. for 72 hour evaluation or he could sign for himself because he is over 14. I can't believe at 14 they let kids decide if they want drugs... Joe is now on his 12 th week drug-free. For four days now he has not had any problem at school, and everyday when I wake up I still go right to his room and make sure he is okay, and thank God for my son. Yes, these drugs do ruin people's lives, and the ones around them who love them and see all this happening when we have trusted in the medical profession...but no longer do I. Even the MD now I ask all kinds of questions and research every drug they try to give including vitamins for the new grand daughter. At one point I went to my family doctor, and told him all my troubles, and I had severe headaches and numbness in my face and neck and arm, and he said I had too much stress and gave me Wellbutrin, which I took for one week, didn't at all like my reaction, I felt so much worse about everything I wanted to just not wake up, so when my samples were all gone I never went back to a doctor for help again. Thanks everyone for your very helpful responses...I will keep reading and let you know how things are. I think I'm probably not expressing myself very well, but things are not good yet, only so much better than before!! Polly